題:
音頻延遲什麼時候重要而不重要?
hotpaw2
2015-02-28 02:24:28 UTC
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When does audio latency (physical action to heard sound) matter and/or not matter?

iOS touch-to-sound latency is reported to be on the order of 50 milliSeconds, yet some musicians manage to play iOS music apps without too much complaint.

I've also heard reports of complaints about even 5 mS of latency, yet musicians used to stand well over 10 feet (diagonal, ground level to head level) from their stage monitor speakers which adds over 10 mS to any audio system latency.

So, what are the situations where a few milliSeconds of latency really matters? And what are the situations where even dozens of milliSeconds of latency might still allow acceptable (virtual or MIDI) musical (instrument) practice or performance?

我覺得我沒有足夠的知識來提供實際的答案,但我的理解是,一般人可以聽到,相同聲音的兩次重複在> 30ms的不同時間發生。在這種情況下,我認為延遲將在30ms左右變得最明顯。錄製配音時,這往往會變得更加重要,因為實際上延遲太長了才是顯而易見的,一致的,並且通常您打算反复聽到錄製的聲音,因此現場表演中可能很少注意到的小問題會更加突出。
@Basstickler-我也很猶豫要提出一個實際的答案。您可以在5到7毫秒左右“感覺”到延遲,儘管不是嚴格地“聽到”它[除了相位差]。然而,很長一段時間以來,即使只是演奏附帶的鍵盤,早期的合成器/ midi鍵盤也有10-25ms的延遲。音樂家只是“習慣了”,世界因此而改變了。 [我仍然無法從該信息中得出實際答案]
@Tetsujin-與其他人相比,我基本上了解到一些人對此有更多的了解。我也想知道30ms規則在多大程度上適用於兩種不同的聲音。通常情況下,人類的狀況會導致我們在節奏方面出現不一致,因此稍有延遲就沒有什麼不同,除了事實是,所有延遲都會使延遲退後,從而使拍子後面的事物進一步落後提前,或者提前,準時或落後。這樣,我想可以感覺到整體性能的差異。
我第二個觀點是“有些人比其他人更能聽到/感覺到它”,儘管我認為從技術上講,任何人都可以接受培訓以注意到它們之間的差異。實際上,這取決於您習慣於什麼,期望如何以及對性能的要求。為了進行緊湊的錄音室質量的錄音並真正將自己鎖定在“區域”中,我認為5毫秒或6毫秒以上的任何時間都會開始引起問題。如果您要進行現場表演,則將其設置為20,而沒有人會更明智。如果您正在演奏帶有柔和,緩慢的音色的合成器打擊墊,我敢說即使500毫秒也可以。
哦,您知道誰在上電時代必須應對延遲嗎?演奏氣動傳輸風琴的演奏家請仔細閱讀。
如果管道距離30M +(100 + mS,接近16個音符延遲),那麼即使是有線風琴鍵盤也會有很大的問題。管風琴如何與合唱指揮及時演奏?
五 答案:
Some Dude On The Interwebs
2015-02-28 03:51:41 UTC
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Apparently the AES wondered the same at some point and did this study:http://lsbaudio.com/publications/AES_Latency.pdf

They had a sample comprising of different instrumentalists give a subjective grade to a monitoring system configured with a certain amount of latency,

While the title says "in live sound monitoring" if you read it you'll see that the in-ear-monitor tests answer your question perfectly even in a studio setting (the wedge ones are still interesting if less relevant).

You might also find this table - from a reputable author - useful: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan05/articles/pcmusician.htm#7

It boils down to, roughly, optimal values of around:

  • vocals < 3ms;
  • drums < 6ms;
  • guitars < 12ms;
  • piano < 10ms;
  • keyboards (pads, etc) < 20ms

Note how, according to the author,

"The speed of sound in air is roughly a thousand feet per second, each millisecond of delay is equivalent to listening to the sound from a point one foot further away. So if you can play an electric guitar 12 feet from your amp, you can easily cope with a 12ms latency."

and

"Vocals: This is the most difficult example, because anyone listening to their vocals in 'real time' will have headphones on, and therefore have the sounds 'inside their head'. A latency of even 3ms can be disconcerting in these conditions."

Above those values, I guess that it's all a matter of how much it acceptable to you personally (how picky you are) and to your work.

If you are doing 100+ vocal overdubs (or layered percussion), a value close to 0 is a good value -- you just don't want the delay on the consonants to pile up.

Ditto if you are Mariah Carey and you just can afford the best.

If you are doing a quick demo in a home studio - whatever -- you'll move the "s"'s around with the mouse, right?

“如果您要進行100多個聲部配音(或分層打擊樂器),則接近0的值是一個很好的值-您只是不希望輔音上的延遲堆積。”我認為這是不對的-任何錄音軟件都可以將配音自動移到正確的位置,您所需要的只是已知的和可預測的往返延遲。如果您需要通過軟件進行監視(例如,如果您希望DAW對您聽到的聲音施加一些效果),則延遲的絕對值至關重要。如果這無關緊要,則通常使用零延遲硬件監視簡單。)
Rockin Cowboy
2015-02-28 10:08:19 UTC
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I would like to share my thoughts as they relate to your question about iOS touch to sound latency and "(virtual or MIDI) musical (instrument) practice or performance?"

I must assume that your primary interest is - latency as it relates to iOS musical instruments and devices or other "virtual and digitally produced musical sounds (MIDI) during "practice or performance" on these type devices or "instruments".

For the TL;DR skip to the end. To understand how I arrived at the conclusions at the end - continue reading.

The studies cited in Some Dude's answer and some of the anecdotal information cited in comments - relate to musicians playing real (as opposed to virtual) instruments. But what we learn from these studies and observations will lead us to some logical conclusions as they relate to your specific question.

First let me add to the anecdotal evidence from my perspective as a performing guitarist and vocalist who has also played some keyboard and piano. I often perform in a totally acoustic setting with un-amplified acoustic guitar and no microphone. In a case like that, the latency is very low - particularly on vocals. When I perform plugged in and sing through a mic, I generally use floor wedge monitors fairly close. None of these scenarios pose any problems for me.

When I perform in larger venues with a house PA and monitors that may be suspended from the ceiling, I am quite uncomfortable with the delay between the time I pluck a string on my guitar and the time I hear it through the monitor - and I have a difficult time performing under those conditions. I am sure that if I did that all the time as a matter of practice, I might eventually get used to it and adapt.

So let's look at what we can extrapolate from the AES study shared by Some Dude. Then we can make some conclusions about what the findings might suggest for virtual instruments.

In that study we learn that vocalist and saxophone players have the least amount of tolerance for latency and keyboardist and drummers have the most tolerance and guitar players are in between. The findings of the study clearly show that the tolerance levels are directly related to the instrument and NOT the individuals. The same individual playing different instruments would have latency tolerance levels consistent with other results on the given instrument.

So let's consider why that might be true. Whenever you talk or sing, your brain expects an immediate zero latency response to sound coming out of your mouth at the exact same time your diaphragm and lungs push air over your vocal chords. It has been that way from the time you entered the world screaming and hearing the sound of your own voice for the first time. So it's easy to understand why a vocalist, would have a low tolerance for latency. The brain is used to immediate feedback when vocalizing.

With the saxophone player, the brain has developed a similar expectation. Making a sound with a horn has one very significant cause and effect commonality with making a sound with your voice. The act of blowing air - produces an immediate sound. Whether singing or blowing a horn, there is a very conscious physiologic muscular action that produces a simultaneous and instantaneous reaction. Horn players are used to blowing through their instrument and immediately hearing a sound.

EDIT: Community member Supercat made and excellent point in comments and I felt compelled to include it in this answer. To sing a note with voice or to play a note with many types of horns - the facial muscles and vocal muscles actually control the sound as it's being created and minor adjustments must be made during the creation process to reach the desired pitch. So a singer for example can hear in the monitor if he/she is a bit sharp or flat and immediately make the necessary adjustments to the facial/vocal muscles to correct the pitch. Another good explanation for lower tolerance of latency for a singer or horn player.

Now let's consider why keyboardist have such a high tolerance for latency. Most keyboards including acoustic pianos have a slight delay between the time you press a key and the time you hear a sound. On acoustic piano, pushing the key triggers a mechanical action - which eventually causes a hammer inside the piano to strike the strings. But it is not an immediate "hit it and hear" it effect. Synthesizers and digital and electric piano's have always had some degree of latency. So keyboardist have had to learn to adapt to the unavoidable latency from the moment they began playing. So to a keyboardist, latency is normal and expected - therefore well tolerated. It's what they learned to expect from the very beginning.

With a drummer, it is in fact a hit it and hear it response. So how do we explain a drummer's tolerance to latency in the AES study? The study done in 2007, did not mention the use of electronic drums for testing the drummer's tolerance to latency so I must assume that the drummers in the test, used an acoustic kit.

A drummer hitting an acoustic drum with a drumstick, quite frankly does not need a monitor to hear the sound of his drum. A drummer uses a monitor NOT to hear himself (some drummers even wear earplugs because they can hear their drums TOO well) but to hear the other musicians (and the other musicians turn up their monitors so they can hear themselves over top of the drummer).

So a logical conclusion that we can make based on the results of the AES study - is that tolerance to latency is **learned.** The brain learns all kinds of useful information that keeps us sane. For example, any time your eyes are open, you see your nose, but the brain has learned to disregard that image, because your brain knows it's not important.

The brain has learned to expect immediate feedback when we exert the necessary muscle contractions to blow air - either through a horn or our vocal chords. If we learn to play a piano or other keyboard instrument - the brain LEARNED from the beginning to adjust to the built in latency of the keyboard.

So my expectation would be, that we can easily learn to tolerate latency with most virtual instruments, because we have not been pre-conditioned to expect otherwise. If we never learn to expect an immediate response from virtual instruments, latency should not present the same problem it would for a vocalist, or sax player or guitarist.

I would also expect that with iOS drums played on a touchscreen, latency might very well present some timing issues. If you tap the screen and don't hear an immediate response to the drum, it could make playing in time very difficult. Just the opposite of what live drummers on real acoustic kits experienced in the latency tolerance test.

In reality, there is no tolerance for latency for a drummer. It's impossible to create or simulate latency for a drummer on a live acoustic kit. But on an iOS drum, you could introduce latency - and I would suspect that this would be the one case - where a few milliseconds of latency would matter.

Recording and monitoring vocals is not included in the scope of this answer because you did not mention vocals or even recording (just playing and practicing - instruments) in the question. So that is a completely different discussion.

TL;DR - The bottom line answer to your questions:

  1. Question: "What are the situations where a few milliSeconds of latency really matters?" Answer: When playing iOS or MIDI drums on a silent pad or touchscreen if playing with other music where timing is important.

  2. Question: "What are the situations where even dozens of milliSeconds of latency might still allow acceptable (virtual or MIDI) musical (instrument) practice or performance?"

Answer: When practicing or performing on any iOS or MIDI or virtual instrument other than drums.

因此,根據您的經驗,在經驗豐富的音樂家看來,不僅是鼓,而且在任何iPhone或iPad上模擬的弦樂器也應該感到不可接受,假設從物理觸摸到音頻輸出的最小延遲約為50毫秒的報告是正確的。與“吹製”虛擬管樂器相同,從麥克風到音頻的延遲大約為15到17毫秒(不包括DSP“吹”檢測)。
-1
我懷疑鍵盤和鼓的延遲容忍度的另一個關鍵因素是,必須先完成所有啟動音符的操作,然後才能聽見任何聲音,而唱歌或彈奏薩克斯管則需要一個人調整自己的面部/聲音肌肉以響應聲音或樂器正在運行。
@supercat特長。換句話說,在創建聲音時,面部肌肉和聲帶實際上控制著聲音,並且在創建過程中必須進行一些小的調整。
slim
2015-02-28 16:53:52 UTC
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The effects of latency are a sliding scale ranging through:

  • zero
  • imperceivable
  • perceivable as "feel" (like a drummer who's pulling slightly)
  • perceivable as "something a bit wrong"
  • perceivable as "something completely wrong"; making playing completely impossible

The effect also depend on the kind of sound you're creating. If you're playing something with a gentle attack, like synth washes, then the exact timing doesn't really matter. If you're playing something rhythmic and staccato like drums or a rhythm guitar part, then timing is crucial.

Even a lead guitar part can be quite tolerant of timing shifts, compared to the rhythm parts which need to be tight.

The 50ms delay you mention is around the "feel" or "something a bit wrong" level, and wouldn't completely ruin music, or make it hard to play.

However, latency accumulates. 50ms from touchscreen to sound being generated might be OK. 50ms for the sound to travel from speaker to ear might be OK. Add them together and you've got 100ms, which is not OK.

A 5ms latency in an effects pedal might seem insignificant -- but some guitarists like to chain 10 or more effects, so every millisecond counts.

There are all kinds of situations where latency accumulates -- for example when overdubbing multiple tracks, and you (and/or software authors) have to keep this in mind when engineering.

topo Reinstate Monica
2015-02-28 04:18:25 UTC
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One example of when audio latency barely matters:

You're recording clean vocals into your PC your audio interface, singing along with the tracks you've already laid down. There will be a latency effect both on the way in to the PC, and on the way out. However, the computer knows how big the audio buffer is on the way out, and plays 'early' to compensate; likewise, the DAW knows that what you played was actually played a bit earlier in time, and pulls it forward in time by the buffer length. So although there are two stages of latency in this system, it's almost all dealt with; you barely notice it (if everything's working, of course)

I say 'almost' dealt with because there are some delays in the system that aren't so easily quantifiable. But in practice it seems to get very close.

也就是說,如果您不通過PC進行監視:)
是的-在我的情況下,我想像我們根本沒有監聽(只是聽自己唱歌)。但沒錯,如果您要監視並處於我所描述的場景中,則監視需要從信號到達PC的數字世界之前的一點開始。
Laurence Payne
2015-03-03 05:50:46 UTC
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When the (ISA)Turtle Beach Pinnacle was the king of PC soundcards, with 750 ms of audio latency, we somehow managed to make perfectly-synchronized multi-track recordings by arranging direct monitoring of the input, and pre-fetching the already ecorded tracks.

But if you want to play a software sampler in real time from a MIDI keyboard, or to hear a processed (by the computer) version of your audio input, you need to strive for low latency.

Anything in the region of 10ms or lower is generally considered acceptable. Low single-figure values are quite easily achieved. Anyone content with 50ms is either being very undemanding or is deluded by iPad worship :-)

When "zero latency monitoring" is advertised, it's misleading. Zero is unattainable. They're talking about looping an input signal straight out again, without going through the audio processing system on the computer. It isn't zero latency, it's just avoiding latency completely. (Like we did in the first paragraph of this answer.)



該問答將自動從英語翻譯而來。原始內容可在stackexchange上找到,我們感謝它分發的cc by-sa 3.0許可。
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